Hey , has anyone submitted work experience for the certification as soon after the exam results on 23/24th of June and received the confirmation email from GARP. I submitted my resume as soon after receiving the results in June and now almost a month and waiting for the email from GARP. Upon contacting GARP the answer is it would take "a month or two " for them to review the work experience . It's disappointing when a professional body delays the certification process too long and I understand after the results there will be plenty of ppl submitting their CV, but it's an expected high volumes and arrangements must be made to handle the situation . Being a member of couple of other professional institutions I can say that GARP has a lot to improve in this area . I am personally a big fan of GARP material and appreciate the work that they do - but this is one classic example where they can improve and at least define a time line for each application instead of being vague and say a month or two . We are taking about some uncertain 30 days in the range . Hats off to David and Nicholes for running this support forum and I personally have benefited from the forum and bionic turtle materials - thanks
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FRM certification
- Thread starter Dirar
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@David Harper CFA FRM CIPM , can please share your views on this topic ?
how about some patience?
my guess is that 90% of the candidates have submitted their cvs within days after they got the results. Now, I am too lazy to calculate how many persons that would be - but I say more than 10. Now reading all their cvs, judging whether the written is enough will take time. Yes, it is long, yes, garp should improve. But how should davids magic help here?
Write em an email, drink a beer and wait. Why would you need it that fast anyway?
my guess is that 90% of the candidates have submitted their cvs within days after they got the results. Now, I am too lazy to calculate how many persons that would be - but I say more than 10. Now reading all their cvs, judging whether the written is enough will take time. Yes, it is long, yes, garp should improve. But how should davids magic help here?
Write em an email, drink a beer and wait. Why would you need it that fast anyway?
@flunda ! if you are in situation of a senior risk manger and your application for a good job gets disqualified just because your certification with GARP is pending, then you probably wouldnt have asked this question - "why would you need it fast anyway". Nevertheless, irrespective of why people need it fast, its important to set a clear deadline for the review process is very important for a rocognized risk management program. I have some questions for you, why would you expect an exam results day ? why do you need it on that day, why cant it be late? ha ha .... My holistic intention is to improve the standards of of GARP and I am sure ppl like David can have some impact on this. BTW, I just asked an opinion from David, not that I have asked him to do anything about it. Its about creating an awareness of weaknesses so that can be addressed. Dont be to lazy to count numbers - too bad in our profession (kidding only, no offennce), its roughly 2,000 who passed the exam this time and lets assume 100 people who posted the CV within the next few hours, at least they should have received the e-mail confirmation by now. Shouldnt take more tha 30 days to review 100 single page CVs.
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It seems that people can post CVs till 20th of Sep but will get the e-mail confirmation by 30th Sep (only in 10 days). This clearly means GARP actually fast tracks the process at the end, and clearly disadvantaging the people who submitted the CV on the day of results or shortly afterwards. Finally, forget about my arguments, in the world of finance there should be adhearance to deadlines to uphold the programs. Hope I make sense here Flunda.
I think I counted the people who passed level 2 this latest wave came in at 2,010 people. Figure it takes on average an hour to review someone's work history, see if it qualifies, and then confirm them as a certified FRM. An hour is really aggressive, considering over 2/3 of the people on the pass list looked to be Asian, and no offense intended as I can't speak or write Mandarin well (correction: at all), but the bullet points for their work history are likely poorly written and difficult to read & interpret what they did at their job and whether it qualifies as risk-related, so figure really 2-3 hours per application. Figure half of the people who got the pass news were so happy they submitted their CV within a week. That's over 1,000 people, or ~2,500 man-hours or ~300 man-days of certification processes their staff has to perform. With every day more and more people submitting their CV, from this May 2014 wave, and maybe even people who passed in Nov 2013 or earlier finally getting around to it now. Even if they had like 20 people drop everything they're doing and solely process applications, it's going to take longer than 30 days. Plus they have ERPs applying too. And to be fair to people with varying computer/internet access, they probably process all the applications they receive in the first week or 10 days or whatever and release the certification to everyone at once, rather than an immediate FIFO approach which would disadvantage third-world country or low-income applicants who don't sit at an internet-ready computer 24/7.
The point of all the above is, yes, it's been awhile, but there really is nothing else they can do. Short of hiring a bunch of office temps to rubber stamp applications where the person's job title was Financial Analyst or Risk Analyst or similar, which would severely undermine the integrity of the designation, it must take a while. Have some patience, and realize that emails to GARP asking for faster processing or an update likely won't accelerate the process, and only serve to steal time away from actually processing applications to respond to your emails.
To your point about job applications, your can mark in your resume that you passed Level 2 and are awaiting your work experience to be verified. If they question that, forward them your pass results, or the PDF from GARP listing the Level 2 passes for May. If that still isn't enough for your potential employer, then imagine how working for them will be, if they are this pedantic about whether you have FRM after your name now or in a month from now, knowing receipt of the certification is a foregone conclusion anyway.
I submitted same day on 6/23 too, and am still waiting as well. I agree it would be nice if it were faster, but I respect the delay as evidence that GARP is actually having staff whose full-time job it is to review FRM/ERP applications reviewing the work experience for quality, and not just hiring National Temp Services or whoever to robo-approve applications to clear the backlog.
The point of all the above is, yes, it's been awhile, but there really is nothing else they can do. Short of hiring a bunch of office temps to rubber stamp applications where the person's job title was Financial Analyst or Risk Analyst or similar, which would severely undermine the integrity of the designation, it must take a while. Have some patience, and realize that emails to GARP asking for faster processing or an update likely won't accelerate the process, and only serve to steal time away from actually processing applications to respond to your emails.
To your point about job applications, your can mark in your resume that you passed Level 2 and are awaiting your work experience to be verified. If they question that, forward them your pass results, or the PDF from GARP listing the Level 2 passes for May. If that still isn't enough for your potential employer, then imagine how working for them will be, if they are this pedantic about whether you have FRM after your name now or in a month from now, knowing receipt of the certification is a foregone conclusion anyway.
I submitted same day on 6/23 too, and am still waiting as well. I agree it would be nice if it were faster, but I respect the delay as evidence that GARP is actually having staff whose full-time job it is to review FRM/ERP applications reviewing the work experience for quality, and not just hiring National Temp Services or whoever to robo-approve applications to clear the backlog.
Some quick thoughts on your numbers - no offense - numbers don't seem to make sense . I understand from a colleague who called GARP that there are 1000 application in total for review and now exactly 1 month since thd results were released . 1000 people submitting in one week is a very aggressive assumption given that a considerable amount of students who passed the exam are full time students snf still not achieved their work experience. See my point is I submitted my work experience to CFA institute after passing my level 3 exam and it took only 10 days for them to review my 10 + years work experience - it's doesn't mean their review process is weak . The challenge is to do quality job efficiently . Ok ppl can have different opinions about this , but we have no option but to wait for the email - the long wait continues .... PS :- don't blame the employer for rejecting a candidate based on pending certification coz in the competitive job market - employers need some parameters to short list CVs - one more thing your point about language skills of Asians only made me laugh , for somebody passing FRM 2 , must definitely know their basic English !
Not sure how my numbers didn't make sense. I suggested there was probably 1,000 applications (1/2 of all passes), and you said a friend called and confirmed that exact number existed now. I don't think there is an even or normal distribution of applicants over the last month -- I'd bet it's a fat tail within the first week or so with an exponential decay. Again, to ensure they don't disadvantage people, they probably process all applications in the pipeline before they announce certifications all at once, so that job search applicants who passed FRM L2 together and submitted in a timely manner aren't disadvantaged against each other if one gets a lucky quick approval and can apply to jobs as an FRM and another has to wait for 600 more applications and potentially a month before they get FRM for job hunting.
Not saying the CFA review process is weak, but consider two main differences between the processes and why one would be quicker than the other.
Not saying the CFA review process is weak, but consider two main differences between the processes and why one would be quicker than the other.
- You pay the CFA $275 to review your membership application. Most people pay $0 for GARP to review their FRM application. There is extra financial incentive for CFA Institute to process you application and collect your $275 now rather than a month from now.
- CFA allows candidates to apply for membership anytime, including if they haven't even sat for L1. GARP only considers membership applications once you've passed both levels. It would therefore be natural for GARP to have a large surge of applications after the exam results, whereas CFA Institute emails candidates to suggest they apply 6-8 weeks before L3 results are released specifically to avoid a large surge in applications.
Helter
when you mentioned that:
"You pay the CFA $275 to review your membership application. Most people pay $0 for GARP to review their FRM application. There is extra financial"
why may there be some people paying > $0 fees for GARP to review their FRM certification application? is there any other potential hidden fee requirement for people to submit their work experience to complete the "certification" process for FRM designation?
when you mentioned that:
"You pay the CFA $275 to review your membership application. Most people pay $0 for GARP to review their FRM application. There is extra financial"
why may there be some people paying > $0 fees for GARP to review their FRM certification application? is there any other potential hidden fee requirement for people to submit their work experience to complete the "certification" process for FRM designation?
@Helter , not having sufficient people on board to handle high volume is a type of operational risk . This institution which teaches risk management must know how to manage their operational risk first . We have fewer FRM holders than CFA holders , the policy of GARP for accepting affiliate membership is to grow FRM numbers . Although , this strategy sounds sensible to get more people registering with GARP, they operational policies such as "meeting deadlines" or "not defining deadlines" is not supporting their overall objective of growing FRM holders ( strategic drift )If they want money to provide better service , then they have to charge a nominal fee , if that can improve speed . Garp states that they handle application on a FIFO basis , I don't agree with you that they treat applications received in a week equally - this is a very unrealistic assumption , unless this is advertised by GARP and communicate this information , no need for us to make any assumptions . According to an earlier communication by GARP in their Facebook page , ( @David Harper CFA FRM CIPM shared it sometime before ) they say that they handle experience verification application as soon as few days to a month . This again clearly indicates they don't stick to what they say .
Click below the link for GARP advertised time frame . http://m.facebook.com/garpfrm/posts/343568202321170
@Helter ... Do u have any comments on the above FB communication by GARP. What u think about their stated policies and actual execution .
@Helter ... Do u have any comments on the above FB communication by GARP. What u think about their stated policies and actual execution .
@Dirar , clearly you're very anxious to get to use FRM after your name, and feel job prospects of yours are being held up by it not being there right now. I know job hunting can be competitive, so hopefully the potential employers to which you're applying can see past the absence of "FRM" on your resume through to your other accomplishments, including your CFA, work history, and having passed both Part I & II of the FRM exam.
You also mentioned solely wanting to help improve GARP, so I hope to see you actively participating in whichever local chapter accepts you once your are certified, as I think your voice will be more influential to enact change at GARP in that capacity rather than griping in the Bionic Turtle forums. The delay has been discussed here before, and David has mentioned that the process can be longer than advertised from that Facebook post.
https://forum.bionicturtle.com/threads/frm-certification-process.7543/
I think it's worth pointing out though that technically they still haven't violated that stated deadline. June 24th was the first business day after the exam results were released, so this upcoming Friday would be the first day they technically have exceed the "as long as a month" deadline you quoted them on, if you submitted your CV on the night of June 23rd.
I think it's also worth pointing out, since you took issue with GARP's "1 week to 1 month timetable" as too disparate, that the CFA Institute's stated timetable is more disparate at anywhere up to 8 weeks, although it probably seldom takes that long. I think whoever at GARP posted the timetable to Facebook over 2 years ago was trying to be helpful, but you may have been happier if they just referred to the official posted timetable of by the certificate mailing date (September 30th) and let you be pleasantly surprised to be notified in mid-August, rather than have them say probably up to a month, and then have you be notified at the end of July and be angry it took a month and 3 days.
@tool2 , my comment was in regards to the fact that with CFA, to earn the charter you have to submit an application, along with your first year's regular membership dues of $275 (presuming you aren't already a paying member and have previously paid one or more year's membership). For the FRM, you don't have to be a regular member paying $175/year, as you can still be awarded the FRM certification being a non-paying affiliate member, or regardless you may even still be under their 1st year free of regular membership from your exam candidacy enrollment if you passed your exams on the 1st attempt(s). There are no "hidden fees" in the FRM certification process, only optional costs.
You also mentioned solely wanting to help improve GARP, so I hope to see you actively participating in whichever local chapter accepts you once your are certified, as I think your voice will be more influential to enact change at GARP in that capacity rather than griping in the Bionic Turtle forums. The delay has been discussed here before, and David has mentioned that the process can be longer than advertised from that Facebook post.
https://forum.bionicturtle.com/threads/frm-certification-process.7543/
I think it's worth pointing out though that technically they still haven't violated that stated deadline. June 24th was the first business day after the exam results were released, so this upcoming Friday would be the first day they technically have exceed the "as long as a month" deadline you quoted them on, if you submitted your CV on the night of June 23rd.
I think it's also worth pointing out, since you took issue with GARP's "1 week to 1 month timetable" as too disparate, that the CFA Institute's stated timetable is more disparate at anywhere up to 8 weeks, although it probably seldom takes that long. I think whoever at GARP posted the timetable to Facebook over 2 years ago was trying to be helpful, but you may have been happier if they just referred to the official posted timetable of by the certificate mailing date (September 30th) and let you be pleasantly surprised to be notified in mid-August, rather than have them say probably up to a month, and then have you be notified at the end of July and be angry it took a month and 3 days.
@tool2 , my comment was in regards to the fact that with CFA, to earn the charter you have to submit an application, along with your first year's regular membership dues of $275 (presuming you aren't already a paying member and have previously paid one or more year's membership). For the FRM, you don't have to be a regular member paying $175/year, as you can still be awarded the FRM certification being a non-paying affiliate member, or regardless you may even still be under their 1st year free of regular membership from your exam candidacy enrollment if you passed your exams on the 1st attempt(s). There are no "hidden fees" in the FRM certification process, only optional costs.
@Helter , to start with I dint know about David's post until yesterday I found them and posted it . I think before commenting on Asians' written communication , u better improve on your reading , that would be helpful to avoid any confusion . If you read my post from the beginning , GARP is now saying the whole process would take "a month or two " and this is conflicting with what they have previously communicated in Face book . The important point is not just me , there have been frustrating candidates in the past posting in this forum or elsewhere , which means it's a consensus view opposed to an individual view . Why the institution needs to communicate different things at different times and this is getting really complicated . On a final note , I would be glad if we receive the email from Garp on Friday . Once again thanks for your posts and the time you spent on defending GARP taking different tone/ views as you posted every time you commented on this thread -( some of them are conflicting with each other ) . Good luck on receiving your confirmation at the earliest . Nothing personal . Take care
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LMAO
Hi, I'm Dirar. GARP really sux. I mean, they can't get it 2gether and do anything right. They're slow & dumb, and shouldn't b teaching risk management cause clearly they r failing operationally. After all, how hard is it to see how awesome I am and give me FRM. I'm really pissed, cause my resume keeps getting thrown in the bin, and it totally wouldn't if they saw FRM next to my name in big bold colorful letters, and it would totally make them forget I'm completely unqualified for the job otherwise. I should be in charge of GARP cause then everything would be awesome and I'd get my FRM in a week and I'd be hired to be the CRO of a Fortune 100 company and everything would be super awesome cause I'm the greatest. I guess I'll just complain here instead, and maybe call GARP again tomorrow and ask if they r done yet, cause I deserve FRM before everyone else and I just wanted to make sure nobody else got FRM yet b4 me or else I'd be really angry. What are everyone else's thoughts? I'm right, right? If you don't agree with me, ur a lozer! ha-ha, j/k, it's ok to have a wrong opinion, it just means I'm clearly smarter than u.
Did I sum it up correctly Op?
Hi, I'm Dirar. GARP really sux. I mean, they can't get it 2gether and do anything right. They're slow & dumb, and shouldn't b teaching risk management cause clearly they r failing operationally. After all, how hard is it to see how awesome I am and give me FRM. I'm really pissed, cause my resume keeps getting thrown in the bin, and it totally wouldn't if they saw FRM next to my name in big bold colorful letters, and it would totally make them forget I'm completely unqualified for the job otherwise. I should be in charge of GARP cause then everything would be awesome and I'd get my FRM in a week and I'd be hired to be the CRO of a Fortune 100 company and everything would be super awesome cause I'm the greatest. I guess I'll just complain here instead, and maybe call GARP again tomorrow and ask if they r done yet, cause I deserve FRM before everyone else and I just wanted to make sure nobody else got FRM yet b4 me or else I'd be really angry. What are everyone else's thoughts? I'm right, right? If you don't agree with me, ur a lozer! ha-ha, j/k, it's ok to have a wrong opinion, it just means I'm clearly smarter than u.
Did I sum it up correctly Op?
The title of the thread sounded interesting, which made to have a go at it.... I completed my CFA level II last year and registered for FRM Part I this November. Although I dont have much knowledge about GARP , CFA institute etc, I have something to share as well. the thread started with a usual frustration of somebody waiting foe exam result and review process etc. However, it seems some of the last few messages specially from MCnnor are a total misinterpretation of previous comments in the thread. I also dont like somebody to point a finger at a particular nationality and comment about their language abilities etc, i have seen in my life non native English speakers writing better English than native ones. So its better to always state that some people cant articulate or write well in English instead of stating Asia etc. @Dirar , honestly I wish you good luck man on your certification and all the best on your job search.
I think I counted the people who passed level 2 this latest wave came in at 2,010 people. Figure it takes on average an hour to review someone's work history, see if it qualifies, and then confirm them as a certified FRM. An hour is really aggressive, considering over 2/3 of the people on the pass list looked to be Asian, and no offense intended as I can't speak or write Mandarin well (correction: at all), but the bullet points for their work history are likely poorly written and difficult to read & interpret what they did at their job and whether it qualifies as risk-related, so figure really 2-3 hours per application. Figure half of the people who got the pass news were so happy they submitted their CV within a week. That's over 1,000 people, or ~2,500 man-hours or ~300 man-days of certification processes their staff has to perform. With every day more and more people submitting their CV, from this May 2014 wave, and maybe even people who passed in Nov 2013 or earlier finally getting around to it now. Even if they had like 20 people drop everything they're doing and solely process applications, it's going to take longer than 30 days. Plus they have ERPs applying too. And to be fair to people with varying computer/internet access, they probably process all the applications they receive in the first week or 10 days or whatever and release the certification to everyone at once, rather than an immediate FIFO approach which would disadvantage third-world country or low-income applicants who don't sit at an internet-ready computer 24/7.
The point of all the above is, yes, it's been awhile, but there really is nothing else they can do. Short of hiring a bunch of office temps to rubber stamp applications where the person's job title was Financial Analyst or Risk Analyst or similar, which would severely undermine the integrity of the designation, it must take a while. Have some patience, and realize that emails to GARP asking for faster processing or an update likely won't accelerate the process, and only serve to steal time away from actually processing applications to respond to your emails.
To your point about job applications, your can mark in your resume that you passed Level 2 and are awaiting your work experience to be verified. If they question that, forward them your pass results, or the PDF from GARP listing the Level 2 passes for May. If that still isn't enough for your potential employer, then imagine how working for them will be, if they are this pedantic about whether you have FRM after your name now or in a month from now, knowing receipt of the certification is a foregone conclusion anyway.
I submitted same day on 6/23 too, and am still waiting as well. I agree it would be nice if it were faster, but I respect the delay as evidence that GARP is actually having staff whose full-time job it is to review FRM/ERP applications reviewing the work experience for quality, and not just hiring National Temp Services or whoever to robo-approve applications to clear the backlog.
i dislike this comment for a specific mention about an ethnicity and their skill set.
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